Curse

Junato · Jun 10, 2012, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I agree with ^, in our past lives we were warriors

HigherMinion · Jun 10, 2012, 10:59 PM // 22:59

People are boring outside the walls of the web. People are grasping for ideas, clutching at straws to have a conversation with you with no content. Pointless. Go read a book, play a game or watch a film.

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 12, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

my husband had the game when I came back from overseas...he wanted us to play together since most computer games are solo....gw was not

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I just don't like people, nor do I get any satisfaction from spending time with them.

While Guild Wars focusses on team play, you can always play it solo. With the right builds, heroes and tactics, you can do anything as well or better that players. I've personally completed all Hard Mode titles solo. Most MMO's are like this, because the developers know that most people just don't like playing with others. Let's face it, online games are full of bad people who just want to ruin our time. Even Stephen Izaiah Cartwright (responsible for game balance in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2) says of his own history in MMO's: I got into gaming pretty young. I, you know, started off on Nintendo and played on that and then I got into UO as the first MMO I got into. And I was.... I'm a huge griefer. I like killing people, I like ruining everyone's day. I was a big big horrible horrible evil person. And if you know me in real life, it's really counter to... I'm a very nice person in real life and a horrible person online. Um, and then, I played lots of MMO's after that.

Despite all this, there are still good players out there with good intentions. It pays to give people a chance sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I play because I have the desire to finish what I started (goal orientated person)

That's the spirit of a gamer

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

have yet to do that with this game.

Why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I play no other online games though I do have some computer games (spore and alien crossfire--which my hubby and I do play together, though he likes to play on a much higher level than I and finds it 'boring' to 'come down' to my level now).

Then play with him at his level, he can teach you

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Games are fun and occupy my spare time.

When you can pinpoint what you find fun and why, then you have your magic answer

. It's scary I know. People spend countless hours in a video game without really knowing why. It's easy to put a blanket over it with generalised terms. This comes from a convenient idea that everything we do is for pleasure. You do this for fun, you do that for fun. It makes you feel good, so you do it.

But is that really the case? When we play an MMO, most of what we do is NOT fun. Yet we do it anyway. To face the reasons why, is to face your true self. And to do that, you have to re-evaluate your philosophies and change the way you think of yourself and the world around you.

Have you noticed how MMO's are almost always RPG's? You play the role of your character. You level up, you gain new skills, you get stronger, faster, and better. There's a progression there. In online FPS games, there's a ladder and rank progression of some sort too. You get better weapons, more unlocks and an extra dot next to your name.

Two completely different things are going on here.

1. Progression is there as a tool to empower yourself, as an emulation of real life. Your character grows as it progresses through the storyline, and becomes an inspiratonal hero. Important lessons are learned on the way, you're introduced to new tactics, concepts and abilities, and must learn to use them before you can move on and advance to the next phase.

2. Progression is there to exploit and provoke both psychopaths and troubled players into a mouse wheel. Psychopaths chase troubled players, who in turn chase the unattainable goal of acceptance by the psychopaths. And of course, the only way they will accept you is if you too become a psychopath who chases troubled players. In this way, troubled players are converted into psychopaths. This is why almost every game community degenerates quickly into an infestation of psychopaths. By the time this happens, the next chapter, expansion or sequel is ready to be sold and the sequence repeats itself.

The focus of many game developers is to create a type 2 progression that pretends to be a type 1, casting an illusion for the players that validates what they're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

I don't game that much and I don't really understand why do people play WoW or why they are hardcore gamers.

From a hardcore gamer's perspective: For the same reason one climbs a mountain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

I am a casual gamer so I game to pass the time.

I am a casual remote control helicopter pilot. All the more reason to make the best of what little time for it I have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

Sometimes I seek instant gratification in games, because life is long (depending on each person you will get something different).

I would say life is too short

. While all life ends, regret doesn't. The pleasures of seeking instant gratification fade as quickly as a shadow, and turn to poison. Life is too short to waste, and too long for regret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

I believe their is a correlation to loneliness and gaming

Yes, there is

. As an experienced administrator of online communities in the past, I've found that many people join them because they have a hard time meeting people in real life. There used to be a stigma around this, because people who formed relationships online were considered inadequate and socially inept. But that stigma is virtually gone by todays standards, and we now have a massive industry of social networking websites. There's nothing wrong with forming relationships with people in online communities, so long as they're doing it for the right reasons. It's something that can be used or abused. In my experience, I've seen a lot of people form long lasting friendships and more. They tend to be more stable, and I know a lot of people who are now happily married after meeting on the internet. That's a big part of why the 'online relationship' stigma has almost vanished nowadays. People who met online are now happily married, while everyone else is divorved.

Sadly, online games offer a different kind of community, one that's almost exclusively destructive. Loneliness is preyed upon by game developers in a type 2 progression mouse wheel as stated above. It's also preyed upon by social networking websites such as facebook. The recurring problems seen in both online gaming and social networking websites, are not a coincidence. They're a symptom of malign intent to profit from people's problems at the expense of their wellfare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

If someone were to study that correlation people will find the answer to why we game.

There have been countless studies done all over the world. Each study comes to a different conclusion, since they're either based on a flawed concept, promoting a political ideology or examine completely different groups of players with different motives. The answer comes from within. There are many possible reasons why one games, both good and bad. It's up to each person to figure that out for themselves. To understand the question, one needs to understand that 'play' and 'game' include far more than video games. It involves the pursuit of all hobbies and interests, and the underriding motives behind them. Video gaming is unique, because it has the potential to combine any and all into one, for better or worse. With great opportunity, comes great respnosibility and great cnosequence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheRaisesTheDead

Simply put, I game to escape any numerous amounts of things, but for the most part, a reality or destiny I did not chose. A reality I don't quite fit in vs a world I can be anything in.. I'll take the latter any old day.

Reality has always lacked substance for me, and I discovered through gaming, I could easily gain, or with a little effort and time, gain what I felt was missing in 'that version of my life'. Yes I can differentiate between reality and game reality, I sometimes chose not to though.. it makes the immersion so much more thorough for me.

Reality is that bad that you'll indulge in a lie to feel better, rather than do something to make it better for real? This is the core theme of the film 'Avatar' in reference to 'alternate' reality, where a persons life is so depressing that they neglect, and eventually end it in order to live in another world. Gaming should show you what you're capable of and inspire you to be a hero in the real world, to stand up and make things better. Heroes aren't born, they're made when someone stands up and says 'I'm going to do something about it!'. What seperates a hero from the rest is that a hero doesn't give up, even when there's no hope. They keep trying, they fight back, and they start caring. They make things happen for the better, no matter how big or small. I can only hope you find that inspiration somewhere. The place you're at is where heroes are made. You're at a crossroads and the decision is yours and yours alone to make. The only failure is not trying.

Sometimes it takes seeing someone worse off than you to make you see how good things really are. Sometimes it takes a great challenge to see how easy the rest is. No challenge is too great for a hero!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

People are boring outside the walls of the web. People are grasping for ideas, clutching at straws to have a conversation with you with no content. Pointless. Go read a book, play a game or watch a film.

Believe me, there are amazing people out there that you have never met

.

**cosyfiep** · Jun 12, 2012, 04:07 PM // 16:07

to answer your questions---my husband likes to KILL things, his way of playing is bring NO healing and see how far you get, my way--I have goals, I want to finish the dang quest not see how many times we can restart it. We started off playing together 7+ years ago, however, with him working 2 jobs and losing internet in gw...I have been playing by myself for many years now.
why I have not finished things: 10k chests to open--I just cant chest run, its just too dang boring and grindy, 10k things to id-- I dont have large amounts of plat on hand so I only id what I pick up, 10mil luxon/kurzick--I dont ab (I abhor killing other players--hence not very good at pvp) nor jq/fa very well either--so I am slowly finishing up these titles as I vanquish (yes with 7 heroes) most of cantha with multiple characters. It will take quite some time to accumulate the last amounts I need to finish those titles up (as well as getting all my characters thru all of the chapters--40+ characters takes time to play)...I have stuff to keep me busy for plenty of time to come.

I will finish sometime.....hubby doesnt care--he is now quite bored of gw.

When we play other games (the alien crossfire) he likes to annoy all the other npcs...I like to make friends, our play styles are no longer compatible so we dont play together (and his level is like 4 or 5 over mine, he finds lower levels too boring to bring me up to speed too), occasionally he will descend to my level and allow me to play with him...though he usually winds up getting me killed off by the npcs he has annoyed..yeah, great fun.

I will continue to play gw until I finish all I want to on all of my characters..at which time gw4 will probably be out and they will be turning off the server on me and the other dozen players.

Perkunas · Jun 12, 2012, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Why do we game? To WIN!!!

Let's all think back to our first game. Can you remember your first game? Not the electronic game, not even a board game, perhaps it was a simple 6 piece puzzle. At first, you just wanted to complete it. Then you started doing it as fast as you could. After awhile, you needed more of a challenge, a bigger puzzle.

Maybe you played T-ball. At first, it was learning to throw, catch, hit, and run. The idea was to win, because that was what was expected.

Dodge ball is a game. In the beginning, you chose your friends to be on your team. You later learned to pick the best players for your team, whether it was your friend or not. Why? To win.

As you grew up, your family influenced your attitude for winning. What did they do to win? Did they take advantage of weaker/not as smart opponents, or did they compete against stronger ones? Were you taken advantage of and now feel you must do the same to weaker ones? Or do you learn from those stronger/smarter than you? All of these things influence your attitude for winning.

What does it mean to win? My answer, being able to complete the assigned task at hand. Finished that puzzle, I win. Last person standing in dodge ball, I win. Staying alive through the battle, I win. Completing the quest and or mission, I win. Getting that last foe in Old Ascalon, I win.

Everyone games to win, whatever your definition of win is.

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 13, 2012, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

10k chests to open--I just cant chest run, its just too dang boring and grindy, 10k things to id-- I dont have large amounts of plat on hand so I only id what I pick up

I didn't bother with them either. I retired from title hunting after getting 100 maxed individual titles across my account, and even I think of those titles as shamefully extreme. They add nothing to the game and do nothing more than feed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and the greed of power traders. Funny (and sad also) that Arenanet promoted Guild Wars as being free of mindless grind (hence the level 20 cap and a big advertisement campaign), then did a back flip to become one of the worst offenders.

A look at the maximum level of PvP titles shows that Arenanet intends for players NOT to finish them, but to continue on a mindless mouse wheel chasing a hologram of cheese. A stairway to nowhere. A classic example of a type 2 progression. You can even 'rank' people you kill, and Arenanet even encourage this psychopathic behavior...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I abhor killing other players--hence not very good at pvp

Think of it like chess. Don't be upset that you have to take a chess piece. It's all about strategy and tactics. I can understand if it's the PvP community that bothers you though. At the height of PvP, Arenanet did a survey and found that only 5% of players had ever done any PvP. And it wasn't for lack of wanting to, it was found that two facets of 'Flavor of the month syndrome' was the cause. Elitism and lack of build freedom, and of course the many other problems they caused. Most of the PvP community these days is only there to mess with people instead of play the game, and the developers have not only catered to that but encourage it. It's sad, since many players including myself saw Guild Wars PvP as holding great potential that was never realised, due to skill (im)balances that broke the game and deliberately turned it into a tool for griefing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

getting all my characters thru all of the chapters--40+ characters takes time to play

Are you sure you want to do that? Most others work on their Hall of Monuments instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

occasionally he will descend to my level and allow me to play with him...though he usually winds up getting me killed off by the npcs he has annoyed..yeah, great fun.

LOL. That reminds me of something in Anarchy Online

(I think you can still play it for free). There's a place where people level up called 'Temple of the Three Winds'. It has a series of cultists through corridors, and various bosses all the way to a big boss at the end, 'Aztur the Immortal'. Sometimes an Atrox Enforcer (equivalent of a Guild Wars Wammo) would bite off more than he could chew. He would run all the way back to the entrance, aggroing all the respawns on the way, which would cause a big mob of cultists we called a 'train' to instantly kill anything in their path. It happened often, and people would run past, yelling 'train!'. You had seconds to run back to the entrance ahead of the train before you got run over! It was both annoying and funny at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I will continue to play gw until I finish all I want to on all of my characters..at which time gw4 will probably be out and they will be turning off the server on me and the other dozen players

Guild Wars was mentioned in the original Star Craft. The founders of Arenanet made Star Craft. Perhaps Guild Wars 4 = Guild Wars in 2600 AD = Star Craft

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Why do we game? To WIN!!!

How sure are you of that

. Try playing games with cheats on for a guaranteed win...

See what I mean? While we play to win (in a functional environment), what we seek doesn't come from victory, unless your motive is to simply misuse the game medium to feel big by standing taller than other people. Think of it like music. Your goal is to reach the end of the song, but is the end what you're really after?

I quote a section of an article I once wrote about competition philosophy: When you compete, do you compete with your opponent, or against your opponent? Competition is a discussion between opponents. Each side shares ideas with their opponent, to find what works better. The language is the battle, and the goal is to work out together which ways to best climb a mountain. Competing with your opponent, the goal is to climb the mountain, and stand tall together with your opponent. Competing against your opponent, the goal is to cut the rope and drag everyone down...just so that you can stand taller than your opponent. One way, everyone gains. One way, everyone loses. One is concerned with empowering themselves. One is concerned with power over others. One seeks to better themselves. One seeks instant gratification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Did they take advantage of weaker/not as smart opponents, or did they compete against stronger ones? Were you taken advantage of and now feel you must do the same to weaker ones? Or do you learn from those stronger/smarter than you?

Those who seek weaker opponents, are playing for the wrong reason. Those who seek stronger opponents, are playing for the right reason. The motives behind each are polar opposites. Not to be confused with a small scale tactic for a larger goal. For example taking pawns in a game of chess, skirmishes in a game of war and target practice against a dummy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

What does it mean to win?

That method 1 used by person 1 worked better than method 2 used by person 2 in that situation. Nothing more, nothing less. Who wins is irrelevant. What matters is that both opponents use the results to explore new heights. There's more to gain from a loss than there is from a victory. While a victory shows that what you did worked, a loss opens the way to something better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I win

Two words. Empty on their own, defined by intent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Everyone games to win, whatever your definition of win is.

I play to win, and hope to lose. That's the secret of a true gamer

. If you play through a game without losing once, you learn nothing. To play -> to lose -> to overcome -> to win.

**cosyfiep** · Jun 13, 2012, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I have completed what I want of the Hom...I really dont care about gw2 as I wont be playing it (hubby's computer cant and after the horrible bwe last weekend--I have NO desire at all to play it). I play for my OWN reasons, not for some silly titles that mean nothing in another game--
I ENJOY playing gw on MULTIPLE characters, I have all the professions, some in both sexes. If I get tired of playing my ranger, I play my mesmer, if I get tired of that I play ~~~ and so on, I even have characters in each profession of types (earth ele, fire ele, air ele, curses necro, sv necro, mm...etc)....

I dont enjoy pvp--never have, waaay back in the early days of online gaming (back screens with 2D line drawings) --you would kill off someone, and then for the rest of the game they would comeback again and again and again and....saying you stink, you cant play etc (all the time you continue to kill them off each time the return)...gets old.
pve doesnt have this revenge type which is why I rather play it over playing vs other people. (I am also getting older and not very fast with the controls so having to have quick responses isnt something I can do anylonger).

I have been playing guildwars for 7+ years, I still enjoy it as much today as a few years ago (sometimes more since the 7 heroes). I like to play all my characters, they feel kind of like my kids and have personalities and such. I will be sad when gw is closed down, but at the same time I will have more free time to read the mountian of books that I have been neglecting in the past 7 years

Perkunas · Jun 13, 2012, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I wish I was a little more articulate, better able to put down what I see in my mind's eye.

There is always a learning curve to being victorious. Unless you have access to inside information, or are extremely lucky, or using cheats, you will lose while learning to win.

Those that only seek out lesser/weaker opponents, imo, are bullies. Those that seem to always seek out the extremely stronger opponents, imo, are sadists. If you have no chance to even react to a given situation, there can be no learning from it, other than to avoid it until better prepared. That, to me, means learning from those who have been there before and have been victorious.

When I first started to play GW, I wanted to beat the game. At the time, that meant reaching the end of the game and winning against Lich. Victory!!! Not really. I had some bonuses left undone. Went back and completed those. I win!!! Again, not really. Still lots of unlearned skills, and a lot of map unexplored.

That left Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North.

I am still learning to win. When I reach my next level of victory, will I have won? I doubt it, there is always another way to look at things or another challenge awaiting. I will keep gaming until I win it all.

Junato · Jun 13, 2012, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Who hasn't used trainers and cheats on Rollercoaster Tycoon and Diablo 1, 2 when you were able to make your own equipment.

fireflyry · Jun 14, 2012, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Interesting points in your response OP.

Imho your being far to generalized and subjective concerning you rebutal or dismissal of other peoples thoughts and opinions.

As for gaming turning people towards psychopathic behaviour?

Sure maybe there are signs of such things but it's a minority effect when concerning life in "RL".I would also add that maybe you are playing the wrong games.GW is the worst of the worst for observing ANY form of social or psychological trends as a result of gaming.

Firstly it's non-subscription hence as result it's geared towards the adolescent market.I've never met as many younger gamers in any other MMO.

Secondly such behaviour in GW is not only tolerated but in many cases embraced.As an example I was a long time player of City of Heroes, although that game is also dropping away in the player base.Sure it's subscription but in my 5 years or more of playing there was zero toleration of bad behaviour or rudeness.It was the most mature community I personally have ever gamed with and any behaviour that was outside the communities acceptance level was instantly punished with kicks or account termination.

As such maybe broaden your horizons in this regard before being overly analytical.

At present this reminds me of the news stories regarding people taking legal action against heavy metal bands because some kids who murdered someone listened to Judas Priest or Marilyn Manson.

That was also shown to have little to no actual merit and was quickly thrown out of court.

Junato · Jun 14, 2012, 11:44 PM // 23:44

So I was trying to search for ways to improve my memory, but then I came to this site:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01691808001200. In summary, expert gamers are more attentative to every detail in the game, they are enveloped into the graphics, control, story, gameplay and engages the mind.

To answer your question with what I have read from that site I would have to say the games that we engage seduce our minds; as if our mind is the hook and the games are the loop in Velcro. Similarly like a basketball player envelopes the ball with his massive hands trying to play the perfect game.

What makes games fun, its a matter of opinion. Also, when there's opinions there is psychology (Still not a science).

If you think about, if a teacher assigns a class to do a book report and you happen to play Guild Wars why not do one on the game. There is a book called Guild Wars Ghosts of Ascalon. In conclusion, if a game engages a player to improve on your typing (The typing of the dead), reading people (poker), and attentiveness (as an expert gamer) you are having fun at learning.

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 14, 2012, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I have completed what I want of the Hom...I really dont care about gw2 as I wont be playing it (hubby's computer cant and after the horrible bwe last weekend--I have NO desire at all to play it). I play for my OWN reasons, not for some silly titles that mean nothing in another game

I wasn't impressed by the beta weekend either. But your Hall of Monuments isn't just about Guild Wars 2, it's a trackable recording of what you did in Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

you would kill off someone, and then for the rest of the game they would comeback again and again and again and....saying you stink, you cant play etc (all the time you continue to kill them off each time the return)...gets old.

Funny that, isn't it. You beat them fairly and apparently YOU can't play. They don't learn from their mistakes and improve because they aren't gamers. They're playing for the wrong reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

pve doesnt have this revenge type which is why I rather play it over playing vs other people.

95%+ of the Guild Wars community chooses not to PvP for similar reasons. And that's telling a lot since Guild Wars is a PvP based game. Revenge killing is destructive behavior and it's never ok. It's against the spirit of sportsmanship and constructive competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I am also getting older and not very fast with the controls so having to have quick responses isnt something I can do anylonger

The difference in reaction times is negligible at best, and even less in games that are dependent on a bad ping. Age related reaction time increase can be retrained through practice anyway. If you stick with it, you gain more with age than you lose.

You should try a reaction test website and see what your scores really are. I just did it myself, twice. I managed to average 0.2016 and 0.2254 seconds. My lowest was 0.064, my highest was 0.263. I'm in my mid 30's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Those that only seek out lesser/weaker opponents, imo, are bullies. Those that seem to always seek out the extremely stronger opponents, imo, are sadists. If you have no chance to even react to a given situation, there can be no learning from it, other than to avoid it until better prepared.

If you seek opponents that are so far above you that you cannot learn anything, then you're a masochist. A sadist is the opposite, gaining pleasure from inflicting pain on others. A sadist sounds more like a bully and a psychopath, while a masochist sounds more like a self sabotaging sociopath. People who seek weaker opponents, do so because they lack confidence and drive to improve and progress. A bully will seek out someone who's defenceless, not weak. A bully is jealous of their victim, usually of their innocence. The trick of a bully is to target those who are defenceless (an easy target), not weak or small. They attempt to belittle their target and make them appear weak, that's all. Bullies use their victims like a foot stool. The stronger their victim, the bigger they feel for bringing them down. That's why you never see a bully picking on someone who deserves it. It's always someone innocent and defenceless.

Take a look at these two videos for a classic example of how the bully/victim scenario really works...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

That, to me, means learning from those who have been there before and have been victorious.

While advice from those with more experience should be sought, it doesn't replace direct experience. When you trade experience for the word of others, you bypass reason and become a blind follower. An example of this can be shown with 'meta' (flavor of the month) syndrome in Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I am still learning to win.

It's a never ending path of improvement. While the road leads ahead, the destination is behind you, to be one step higher than you were. While real gaming is a neverending stairway to everywhere, the current generation of gaming is a neverending stairway to nowhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

Who hasn't used trainers and cheats on Rollercoaster Tycoon and Diablo 1, 2 when you were able to make your own equipment.

And you do it to experience the storyline like an interactive movie, you want to see where it goes. You're putting aside the challenge and playing the story. This is why games have multiple difficulties...

Easy: For those new to games, or want to experience the storyline.

Medium: How the game was meant to be played, a balance that offers the best of both worlds.

Hard: For those who want to focus on honing their new skills and challenging the gameplay limits.

There's something unique to be gained from all three. This is a fundamental concept to video gaming across the board, and it comes in many forms. Sometimes they come in the form of side quests for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Interesting points in your response OP.

Imho your being far to generalized and subjective concerning you rebutal or dismissal of other peoples thoughts and opinions.

It's the purpose of this thread to encourage people to objectively (not subjectively) think about, discover and re-evaluate why we as a whole, and as individuals, game. To achieve that means cutting through dogmatic beliefs and superstitions, and getting right to the uncomfortable truth of the matter. Problems are only solved by those brave enough to face them.

Generalised: On the contrary, I've been very specific. I've explained each situation in detail on its own merits, point by point.

Subjective: On the contrary, objectivity is the very theme of this thread.

Dismissal: The book is never closed on anything, but one must always look at the facts and adjust their thoughts and opinions to match. To ignore an inconvenient truth, that is being dismissive.

If you had compelling evidence that the Earth is flat, I would be compelled to study it

.

Opinion (definition):

1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

2. A subjective belief, the result of emotion or interpretation of facts.

3. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

You're making the point that I'm providing subjective responses to objective arguments. I'm making the point that I'm providing objective responses to subjective arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

As for gaming turning people towards psychopathic behaviour?

Sure maybe there are signs of such things but it's a minority effect when concerning life in "RL".

You don't see sports encouraging griefing, trolling and stalking in real life. You don't see chess players bullying each other in plain sight. You don't see soccer players running around naked and scoring own goals for 'fun'. In the real world, there are direct consequences. Psychopathic behavior gets punished, and it's much harder for psychopaths to mask their actions and intent. On the internet, I've shown very clearly in my previous posts how online game developers have created and cultivated a generation of psychopaths. You're welcome to refute that with the same level of detail and objectivity. But simply claiming otherwise, doesn't make it so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I would also add that maybe you are playing the wrong games.

My gaming experiences go back to over 30 years ago and cover virtually everything. I've seen and done it all. I even make games as a hobby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

GW is the worst of the worst for observing ANY form of social or psychological trends as a result of gaming.

Not the worst, but not far from it. FPS games trump Guild Wars in psychopathic trends, but that's a different genre. I consider Guild Wars a very good example of MMORPG trends. There's a reason why Guild Wars 2 is so overhyped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Firstly it's non-subscription hence as result it's geared towards the adolescent market.I've never met as many younger gamers in any other MMO.

Runescape, anyone? Guild Wars was originally marketed to adults. They did a back flip later and even changed the age restrictions in the EULA. In my 13,281 hours experience in Guild Wars, I would say that far more adults play than kids. Most of them just act like kids, especially in PvP. According to multiple surveys, the average age of an MMORPG player is well into their 20's and 30's.

The non-subscription model has no bearing on the age of players. It does have a bearing on the frequency of psychopathic behavior though (due to an offender's fear of being tracked down via credit card details), and more importantly it just gets more players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Secondly such behaviour in GW is not only tolerated but in many cases embraced.

Yes, and that needs to change. The fact that Arenanet makes claims of 'building community' after what they continue to do after seven years in Guild Wars....makes my skin crawl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

City of Heroes...there was zero toleration of bad behaviour or rudeness.It was the most mature community I personally have ever gamed with and any behaviour that was outside the communities acceptance level was instantly punished with kicks or account termination.

While I haven't played City of Heroes, I know those who have. While I've heard complaints about the gameplay and game world being plain and repetitive, I've also heard positive things about the game community that match what you're saying here. As I stated previously, both players and developers need to stand up and take responsibility. In a city of heroes, everyone stands up against villains

. A good example of what I'm talking about, how games should inspire people to become heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

maybe broaden your horizons in this regard before being overly analytical.

On the contrary, I would say that the question of 'Why we game' is dangerously under analysed, and subject to heavy dogma, taboo and superstition that prevents awareness to a very big and real problem. My horizons are as broad as one can get

. My concerns here are for the future, and they go far beyond 'video games'. There's far more at stake than people realise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

At present this reminds me of the news stories regarding people taking legal action against heavy metal bands because some kids who murdered someone listened to Judas Priest or Marilyn Manson.

That was also shown to have little to no actual merit and was quickly thrown out of court.

That doesn't change the well established fact that music heavily influences people for better or worse. It doesn't change the fact that psychopathic behavior in music functions in the same way as an online game. It doesn't change the fact that hate music is heavily tied to drugs, crime and violence. And it doesn't change the fact that many other court cases do go through, with hate music banned from countries all over the world. As a musician myself (Keyboardist), I'm disgusted when I hear people screaming random threats about how they want to disembowel someone with a spoon just because they can, and then call it music and art. It's nothing more than destructive, senseless emotional rage. It promotes a psychopathic pursuit of instant gratification as a way of feeling better, instead of dealing with problems and learning to understand and manage your emotions.

The tone and lyrics of music you choose to listen to, is a reflection of yourself. If you listen to violent hate music, that's the kind of person you are inside. Believing otherwise does not make it so. Music can be used or abused, just like video games. Guess what kind of music psychopaths listen to? Does a psychopath listen to Evanescence, Bach and Lady Gaga? Or do they listen to Marilyn Manson, Judas Priest and Bring Me The Horizon?

Junato · Jun 15, 2012, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Hey Sentinal Gaurdian,

Do you know how popular Minecraft is now? In your opinion how would you compare the fun of playing minecraft and playing guild wars?

fireflyry · Jun 15, 2012, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Thanks again for your response and again you raise interesting points.At present I don't have the resource of time to respond in kind.I hope to reply in depth at another time but one comment really stuck out for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

The non-subscription model has no bearing on the age of players.

I could'nt disagree more strongly.Firstly do you have actual proof of this or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience as fact?

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 17, 2012, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

So I was trying to search for ways to improve my memory, but then I came to this site:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01691808001200. In summary, expert gamers are more attentative to every detail in the game, they are enveloped into the graphics, control, story, gameplay and engages the mind.

Required to sign up and pay $35.95 to buy the article. All it offers is brief abstract claims of common sense facts that everyone already knows. The article is flawed from the very start, since it's testing video gamers and non video gamers in a video gaming environment. Video gamers already know what they need to do based on how previous video games work, and they're more familiar with the controls.

I'll tell you how it works without charging you a cent. Memory isn't improved by practicing a single skill set alone. It's improved by learning a large amount of skills and how well they work together. Memory quality is determined mostly by physical health and being disciplined and organised. Special techniques for each situation will further enhance memory, and those techniques are quickly formulated automatically by a healthy, disciplined and organised mind with a wide variety of tools to work with.

It's a common myth that if you improve your memory first, learning becomes easier. But it works the other way around. That doesn't stop shady people from selling magic memory pills though. Bad thinking habits are the biggest obstacle to improving your memory.

A good practice example to see the tricks to memory is to learn the number pi to a decent amount of digits. I once memorized the first 100 digits in 45 minutes. That might seem insane, until you try it for yourself and learn HOW to memorise. Most people naturally memorise it in pieces of 3-4 digits, and each piece has some kind of external imprint tied to it. And then there are more imprints in groups of pieces, and parts of pieces, perhaps several imprints at the same time, some going in a progressive sequence. All kinds of patterns that you learn to create, perceive and manage. Consider how easy it is to remember stories, songs, or counting from 1 to 1,000,000. That's a long sequence, yet we can all do it without even trying.

Expert gamers come into gaming with many tools already at their disposal. They don't get all their expertise from gaming alone. It's more about their attitude towards everything, inside and outside of games. They try harder, learn faster and adapt better. They use games to push themselves and refine their skills, instead of sitting in a comfort zone trying to feel good. They strive for excellence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

To answer your question with what I have read from that site I would have to say the games that we engage seduce our minds; as if our mind is the hook and the games are the loop in Velcro. Similarly like a basketball player envelopes the ball with his massive hands trying to play the perfect game.

Seduce, provoke or encourage, the context is defined by both the game design and the intent behind it. MMORPG's focus heavily on seducing players in a variety of ways, but not all games are there to 'suck you in'. Some game developers have a vampiric disposition, and focus on exploiting the players for profit. Some game developers are teachers, builders and artists, and focus on giving to the players and sharing what they have. Seduction involves deliberately misleading someone with bait, to manipulate them into doing something they wouldn't normally do, for your own profit at their expense.

Reflecting on a comparison between 'real' sports and 'e' sports, real sports (whether they be academic or physical) hold the players and administrating powers to a much higher standard. There are fewer options for corruption, since they lack the powers of anonymity that e-sports have access to. But corruption still does exist in sports to a lesser degree. Just as corrupt MMO developers exploit the players, corrupt administration in real sports exploit the fans. They seduce the fans into a violent, self promoting, drunken culture that feeds them a lot of money with little effort. The idea behind it is the same, to trap the fans (or players) into an ignorant state where they don't think and spend spend spend. It's about keeping people in the dark, and comes at a great cost that always ends up harming the sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

What makes games fun, its a matter of opinion.

Your opinion and beliefs of why you do something, and why you actually do it, can be two completely different things. In a gaming environment that focusses on keeping the player in the dark, opinions are almost always out of sync with reality.

Most people think of fun as a general sense of pleasure you get while doing something. The very act is considered fun. I propose that fun is a cognitive reinforcement that happens only at specific moments of time, after re-evaluating what you did and what you got out of it. If if was worth it, you call it fun.

You can make someone believe you're going to give them a million dollars. They step out of the room for five minutes while they get it. While they're gone, you sit there and wait in anticipation of the payment. During that time, you might think you're happy and having fun, being in their cool office on a memorable adventure. But all you're doing is sitting in an unknown room by yourself for five minutes. If they return and give you the money, you think highly of the whole situation and might call it a fun experience. If they return and explain they were only messing with you, you might get angry and consider the whole situation a waste of your time. In this way, people often confuse anticipation and experiences as fun.

This is called delayed gratification, and it's how shady game developers fake it. This is not to be confused with a genuine reward system, where the rewards you get are a personal thing that empowers and inspires you. Manipulating players through delayed gratification is the total opposite. It always focusses on validating yourself through your status in a pre-designed hierarchy. You preform mundane acts repeatedly, in anticipation of rising through the ranks. The higher your rank, the more it validates you, and you fall into a never ending mouse wheel chasing the cheese.

Pleasure vs purpose, the means and the end. The machinations of the mind we call fun, is there as a motivator to keep you on the right course. To pursue gratification is to throw away the end and chase the means instead. It's really just cheating oneself, misusing tools of the mind in an act of self defeat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

Also, when there's opinions there is psychology (Still not a science).

Psychology (definition):

1. The scientific study of the human mind and its functions, esp. those affecting behavior in a given context.

2. The science of the mind or of mental states and processes.

3. The study of the mind, occurring partly via the study of behavior. Grounded in scientific method, psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases, and for many it ultimately aims to benefit society.

Psychology is a science. Psychiatry on the other hand is mostly pseudoscience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

If you think about, if a teacher assigns a class to do a book report and you happen to play Guild Wars why not do one on the game. There is a book called Guild Wars Ghosts of Ascalon.

Why not do a book report on an MMO storyline? Simple, because they're crap. Dan Mayor writes in an article on gamedev.net, 'we don't see very compelling or unique story ideas within the MMO market'. I think even that is being too generous. Was it Prince Rurik who once said, 'Follow me, I'll be right behind you!'. Or maybe it was just lag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

In conclusion, if a game engages a player to improve on your typing (The typing of the dead), reading people (poker), and attentiveness (as an expert gamer) you are having fun at learning.

Fun is by nature the result of learning and bettering yourself. Learning should always be fun. If it isn't fun, it's a sign there's something wrong. The education systems of today are styled after prisons. They're only there to teach you what you need to know in order to be a wage slave. It's an indoctrination process that we don't find fun, and our minds warn us in protest. Humans are being dumbed down and farmed like sheep that shear themselves. They forget their inbuilt nature to learn, and misuse the tools they're born with to chase simple pleasures with no depth.

Learning is the at the core of gaming, but people get so caught up with gratifying themselves that they don't even realise. To play -> to lose -> to overcome -> to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junato

Do you know how popular Minecraft is now? In your opinion how would you compare the fun of playing minecraft and playing guild wars?

Minecraft is a good example for many of my previous points. The fun as intended in Minecraft is about creativity and building things. The fun as intended in Guild Wars is something very dark and destructive, while pretending to be otherwise. To get an idea about the mentality behind the developers of both games, consider their stand on griefing. In Minecraft, they have a detailed wiki entry on it here. They actively deal with it by showing what types of griefing there are, how to prevent it, what they've done about it, what they think of it and have a game that encourages a constructive atmosphere. In Guild Wars, the only thing that exists to combat griefing is a broken dishonor system that serves as a griefing tool itself. Arenanet does nothing to combat griefing, and everything to encourage it... while pretending otherwise. While Arenanet are one of the worst offenders, it's a culture throughout the MMORPG industry. To show how out of touch MMORPG developers are, the popularity of Minecraft speaks for itself. From the Minecraft website just now: 'So far 32,103,971 people have registered and 6,285,390 people bought the game'. How many people are still playing Guild Wars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

The non-subscription model has no bearing on the age of players.

I could'nt disagree more strongly.Firstly do you have actual proof of this or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience as fact?

First of all, do you have actual proof to back up your disagreement, or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience? When disagreeing with something, you need to present an actual case for disagreeing. Not simply disagree with no explanation and ask the other side to back themselves up further. I'll attempt to answer your question nonetheless.

Facts are discovered by independently observing a given subject matter (personal experience) without bias (opinion), and finding the same results. Gaming is full of misguided myths. I remind you that under-guessing the age of players is a mistake that people have been making since gaming became popular. Countless studies and polls all over the world conflict with that myth and show the same data, that people play games at all ages and from all walks of life. To say that expansion based payment brings more kids than a subscription, contradicts those studies, which include all kinds of payment methods. Here's just one example...

The Daedalus Project (quote): It is easy to dismiss video games as pointless activities that only teenagers indulge in. The truth is that the average age of MMORPG players is around 26. In fact, only 25% of MMORPG players are teenagers. About 50% of MMORPG players work full-time. About 36% of players are married, and 22% have children...On average, MMORPG players spend 22 hours a week in these environments and usage is not correlated with age.

I also speak from over 13,000 hours experience in Guild Wars. To reflect on how much that is, the career flight time of a pilot is 10,000 hours. It's also widely said that 10,000 hours is the time required to become an expert in any field or subject.

While there is an age correlation between free to play MMORPG's and the rest, it's only minor and doesn't apply to Guild Wars. Guild Wars may be advertised as free to play, but it isn't. It's just a shady advertising stunt, just like how they used to call it a CORPG to pretend it was different. I've paid $375 for my primary Guild Wars account, which is more than I've paid for any subscription game. By deliberate design, you require all chapters and Eye of the North to play, else you're going to be significantly underpowered. The main reason why people think 'free' MMORPG's are full of teenagers, is because money isn't as abundant for them and it's their only option. But I refer you to the frequency of adult players who play facebook games as evidence to the contrary. The average Farmville player turns out to be a 43 year old woman.

BlackTerror · Jun 21, 2012, 10:55 PM // 22:55

This topic reminds me of the graduation speech that went viral on youtube quite recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4

some quotations from the video itself:

"In our unspoken but not so suttle Darwinian competition with one another, which springs I think from our fear from our own insignificance a subset of our dread of mortality "

"And we are happy to compromise standards or ignore reality if we suspect that's the quickest way or only way to have something to put on the mantle piece; something to pose with, crow about; something with which to leverage ourselves into a better spot on the social totem pole"

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 22, 2012, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackTerror

This topic reminds me of the graduation speech that went viral on youtube quite recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4

I just checked it out, nice find. A very well written and inspirational speech. He brings up similar points I've made in this thread, and makes the same distinction between the two opposing motives. Some parts at the end stood out to me, and both Arenanet and their players would do well to take them to heart...

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McCullough at the Wellesley High School Commencement

Resist the easy comforts of complacency, the specious glitter of materialism, the narcotic paralysis of self-satisfaction. Be worthy of your advantages.

The fulfilling life, the distinctive life, the relevant life, is an achievement, not something that will fall into your lap.

The point is the same: get busy, have at it. Don’t wait for inspiration or passion to find you. Get up, get out, explore, find it yourself, and grab hold with both hands.

None of this day-seizing, though, this YLOOing, should be interpreted as license for self-indulgence. Like accolades ought to be, the fulfilled life is a consequence, a gratifying byproduct. It’s what happens when you’re thinking about more important things.

Climb the mountain not to plant your flag, but to embrace the challenge, enjoy the air and behold the view. Climb it so you can see the world, not so the world can see you. Go to Paris to be in Paris, not to cross it off your list and congratulate yourself for being worldly.

Exercise free will and creative, independent thought not for the satisfactions they will bring you, but for the good they will do others, the rest of the 6.8 billion — and those who will follow them. And then you too will discover the great and curious truth of the human experience is that selflessness is the best thing you can do for yourself. The sweetest joys of life, then, come only with the recognition that you’re not special.

Because everyone is.

Congratulations. Good luck. Make for yourselves, please, for your sake and for ours, extraordinary lives.

fireflyry · Jun 29, 2012, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

First of all, do you have actual proof to back up your disagreement, or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience? When disagreeing with something, you need to present an actual case for disagreeing.

Hypocritical much?

Why not just say "no....actually I don't have proof" as opposed to attempt to belittle me.

You passed comment as fact yet you actually have no proof what you stated was in any way true.Yes I freely admit my opinion is based on my personal experiences and that of my guild in conjunction with chats with other gamers over a myrid of other MMO's yet apparently your word is law.

The majority know the stats concerning average gamers and MMO's dude.

Pity really as I was enjoying this thread till your ego took over.

Good day sir.

Sentinel Guardian · Jun 30, 2012, 12:28 AM // 00:28

fireflyry makes an empty claim, based on opinion.

Sentinel Guardian makes a counter claim, based on many factors that include established research and experience.

fireflyry gets upset, attacks Sentinel Guardian and demands proof.

Sentinel Guardian offers proof, and explains how fireflyry's claim is a popular myth. Sentniel Guardian then asks fireflyry to present more than an empty claim, even so much as an elaboration of the reasoning behind that claim, as to form an actual argument with a defensible and falsifiable position.

A week of silence goes by.

fireflyry gets upset, and accuses Sentinel Guardian of being hypocritical and egotistical. fireflyry further accuses Sentinel Guardian of not offering proof, and uses argumentum ad populum fallacy as the basis behind his claim.

Sentinel Guardian then writes a short story of this and reminds fireflyry that the purpose of this thread is to encourage fireflyry to look past the seduction of argumentum ad populum fallacies and see things as they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the disagreement between fireflyry and Sentinel Guardian so far

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Imho your being far to generalized and subjective concerning you rebutal or dismissal of other peoples thoughts and opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

It's the purpose of this thread to encourage people to objectively (not subjectively) think about, discover and re-evaluate why we as a whole, and as individuals, game. To achieve that means cutting through dogmatic beliefs and superstitions, and getting right to the uncomfortable truth of the matter. Problems are only solved by those brave enough to face them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Firstly it's non-subscription hence as result it's geared towards the adolescent market.I've never met as many younger gamers in any other MMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

Runescape, anyone? Guild Wars was originally marketed to adults.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

The non-subscription model has no bearing on the age of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I could'nt disagree more strongly.Firstly do you have actual proof of this or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience as fact?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel Guardian

First of all, do you have actual proof to back up your disagreement, or are you merely stating opinion and personal experience? When disagreeing with something, you need to present an actual case for disagreeing. Not simply disagree with no explanation and ask the other side to back themselves up further. I'll attempt to answer your question nonetheless. (Sentinel Guardian then offers four paragraphs and a link to said proof)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Hypocritical much?

Why not just say "no....actually I don't have proof" as opposed to attempt to belittle me.

You passed comment as fact yet you actually have no proof what you stated was in any way true.Yes I freely admit my opinion is based on my personal experiences and that of my guild in conjunction with chats with other gamers over a myrid of other MMO's yet apparently your word is law.

The majority know the stats concerning average gamers and MMO's dude.

Pity really as I was enjoying this thread till your ego took over.

Good day sir.

Hypocritical much?

Why not just say "no....actually I don't have proof" as opposed to attempting to belittle me for dispelling your beliefs.

You passed comment as fact, yet you actually have no proof that what you stated was in any way true. Yes, I freely admit my perspectives are based on my personal experiences, that of my guild in conjunction with chats with other gamers over a myrid of other MMO's, many years of heavy research that covers many many topics of varying relevance, backed up by results that parallel many widescale studies of which I have provided a sample...yet apparently your word is law.

What the majority believes on the stats concerning average gamers and MMO's, is irrelevant 'dude'. What matters is the facts, dispelling popular myths and bringing ones beliefs and philosophies more in line and up to date with constructive competition and gaming.

Pity really, as I was in discussion and agreement with BlackTerror over the merits of my own article and its similarities to a recent commencement speech by David McCullough, a video that went viral due to a wave of overwhelming agreement...until your ego got in the way.

Good day, sir. I remind you that the purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate and explore the pandora's box of 'why we game'

.

Junato · Jun 30, 2012, 07:01 PM // 19:01

(I am not supporting or picking sides) I think what Fireflyry was getting at when you said Guild wars was originally marketed to adult players, you didn't source your reference. So it probably came up as an assumption. However, the game requires a certain skill level that most adults have compared to the youngins in which Fireflyry disagrees.

In most part for people who haven't read all of what sentinal is saying please post TL;DR (too long; didn't read)

Sentinel interesting topic came up as I was watching TVO when they were talking about IQ (Intelligent Quotient) and EQ (Emotional Quotient). They were talking about how intelligence is based on emotions. If you have a high IQ you have a better understanding of matters, but the reason for that is that the emotional quotient is at a degree that supports the IQ for being where it is.

It is very interesting, its as they say if you like math you will be good at math. If you hate English you will do bad in english. The emotions sets the bar for intelligence.